“Marlee Matlin: Not Alone Anymore” Interview with Director and Star

Director Shoshannah Stern makes her feature debut with a moving, intimate portrait of Oscar-winning actress Marlee Matlin in the aptly titled Marlee Matlin: Not Alone Anymore (which I reviewed out of this year’s Sundance Film Festival). The film is right now playing at the Tribeca Festival, and I was fortunate to be able to chat via zoom with both Stern and Matlin ahead of the event. Both are deaf, and so our conversation was facilitated by ASL interpreters (whom I thank for their efforts). Below is the interview, edited for length and clarity.

Christopher Llewellyn Reed: Shoshannah, what came first—because you have had a long career as an actress before this—you wanting to step behind the camera and direct or you wanting there to be a film about Marlee Matlin?

Shoshannah Stern: (laughs) How much time do we have? I have always loved reading, always. I started reading at a very early age, was always reading tons of books, always lost myself in the world of books. But it wasn’t until I saw Marlee win her Oscar, when I was seven (aside, to Marlee) … sorry, Marlee, but I was seven at the time.

Marlee Matlin: Whatever, whatever.

SS: (laughs) She always rolls her eyes. OK. But I saw her and I was shaken. I knew I was deaf. I’ve always known that I was deaf. I have many deaf family members. I come from a long generation of deaf people. But I didn’t realize that, in my mind, when I saw myself in books or movies, I saw myself as a hearing person. I had never seen a deaf character represented on TV before, which was a realization for me. That changed the whole way that I thought. And so I think that’s why I wanted to act, because I literally wanted to see myself in stories as a deaf character. What would it look like to have deaf characters? And I was lucky enough where that actually happened. And in one of my first couple of jobs, I got to work with Marlee and then we became friends and kept in touch over the years.

And then the more acting that I did, I asked myself, “Who is telling these stories that I finally get to be a part of?” They’re not really told from my experience at all. They’re always told by people who live outside of my experience. So it’s their perspective or their view of me, which is not aligning with my experience and how I feel. And so I decided then and there to start writing. And I was fortunate enough where I sold a TV show called This Close. And I knew one of the first people that I wanted on the show was Marlee. And she said yes and I was thrilled to have her on the show.

While we were filming, we had this long dinner scene that we were doing and lots of different setups and we got to talking on set. And I don’t remember exactly what we were talking about, but Marlee looked at me with this look. She said, “You need to direct.” And that was another shift, a huge changing moment for me because I had never seen a deaf director before.

We hadn’t had deaf directors in TV and film. And I kept thinking, “What would that look like?” And then a couple years after that moment, American Masters reached out to me saying that they wanted to meet with me. And they said, “Hey, can you direct this story about Marlee’s life?” And I thought, “OK, wow.” We talked about it for a while, but I still was like, “Hold on, wait a minute. Before I accept this job, is Marlee going to be OK with this?” Because I’m a first-time director. I had no experience in documentary.

And then American Masters told me that it was Marlee’s idea. Most of the time it’s the other way around. I know that happens typically in documentaries. You as a director bring an idea to the subject. Both Marlee and I have had different and similar experiences. The system is not made by us or for us. And so we have different ways of existing in it. And that applies to the film, too.

CLR: Thank you for that very detailed answer. So, Marlee, after American Masters approached you, what were your misgivings, if any, about being the subject of a documentary?

MM: When my team called me to say that American Masters wanted to do a documentary about me, we met over lunch because I wanted to hear them out. I wanted to see what their perspective was, what their vision was, what it would look like. And at some point I asked, “Why me?” And they said, “Well, we want to be able to learn more about you. We want the world to learn more about you and who you are.” So I said, “OK, fine.” And I thought to myself, “Alright, I’ll do it on one condition.” I said, “You have to hire a deaf woman to direct it.” And they were like, “What?” And then they took a moment to think about it and they said, “OK. Does anyone come to mind?” And I said, “Yeah, Shoshannah Stern.” Simple as that. I couldn’t think of any other name. I couldn’t think of any other name except Shoshannah ‘s because that dinner scene that Shoshannah referred to that took place during This Close was where I saw what she could do.

I knew she could direct this. She’s an actor, she’s a writer, and director was certainly something that she could do with ease. She was perfect, and I’m glad that she said yes. And I knew that she would be able to make a documentary that would be a vision that people haven’t seen before, even though she never told me exactly what her vision was, what her plans were, what she had in mind, how she was going to approach it in terms of editing or who she would talk to or even, I mean, everything that she saw in that documentary, I had no idea. I had no involvement in the planning. I had no involvement in post. I never even showed up to any of the other conversations that she had with other actors or anybody in the film she talked to. I put 110% trust in Shoshannah and the crew to make this documentary, knowing that she had the vision of a deaf woman talking about another deaf woman’s life. And that’s what we call the “deaf lens.” And maybe Shoshannah can expand on that concept, but I’m smiling because I know that she was the perfect director for this documentary.

CLR:  I love the movie’s title, Shoshannah. At what point in the process of making the film did you come up with it?

SS: I think I already knew because all the moments that you see in the film, in the documentary, had already lived in my mind for so long, had been etched in there. All the interviews that Marlee had done throughout her whole career, I’d seen them before; things that people said to her, how she responded to them. There are words that were used with her that were used to describe me, too. I’ve had a similar experience sitting in interviews and hearing people say, “Hey, what’s it like to be you? What’s it like to be deaf? Explain that to me.” And I’m like, “No, it’s not like that.” And then I would say something and then the hearing person would say, “No, that’s not what I’m looking for. Tell me a different way about your experience.” And I saw that in Marlee’s eyes throughout her interviews. And that always stuck with me.

And so when I came on, I could tell our editors, I could tell our archivists, “Hey, I remember this moment. Marlee’s wearing this color shirt in an interview. She’s saying these things in an interview. Can you find them?” I’ve watched her through my whole life, and I’m sure a lot of other deaf people have, as well. And that perspective shift that happens in the documentary with CODA, we change that perspective because that’s who I’m looking at. I, Shoshana, while I’m watching CODA win the Oscar, I’m looking at Marlee on the screen. I know that she’s the one who fought for Troy [Kotsur] to be cast. I know that she’s the one that fought for Daniel [Durant] to be cast. I know that she’s the one that made CODA as authentic as it was because of her reputation.

And what she put on the line, too! She put her reputation at risk to fight for those other deaf actors. So when they won, I was looking for one of the deaf people to say a couple of words, and I’m looking at Marlee, and I happened to be watching it with 10 other deaf people. And everyone’s watching the Oscar awards and wondering, “When is Marlee going to speak? They just won!” And then it was over. We didn’t get to watch any deaf people speak when they won the award. And I was like, “I was so excited to see what she was going to say.” And then we found this backstage-camera clip where Marlee says the loveliest thing. I cry every time I watch that. I still cry. It gives me goosebumps.

And I told the team, “I want this backstage camera in the film.” And then when I watched it again and she says, “I’m not alone anymore.” And that represents so many different parts of the deaf experience. 90 to 95% of deaf people are born into hearing families. And they are alone in their family, in a way. And that’s usually shown in Hollywood as one deaf person on the screen. They don’t typically act in a scene with other deaf people when they’re being interviewed. It’s usually one deaf person being interviewed by a hearing person. They’re still alone, anytime they’re on camera; there’s no other deaf person with them. You never have a two-shot with a deaf person or two deaf people. And so … “not alone anymore.” That’s how I wanted to film the movie: I didn’t want her to be alone. I wanted to be there with her. I wanted us to have a conversation, a dialogue about her life. And so yeah, that title, it’s always been a theme.

MM: I’m glad I wore cute socks, too, on that couch.

SS: (laugh) Yeah, all of Marlee’s socks are cute.

MM: I didn’t know my socks were going to be visible. I didn’t know what the setup was, I didn’t know what Shoshana’s vision was in terms of the camera shot. I didn’t know that it was going to be that way until I saw the documentary and I went, “Oh my God, look at the socks.” (laughs)

CLR: Speaking of this pigeonholing of deaf actors, I really liked your interview with Aaron Sorkin where you address how Children of a Lesser God remains this sort of “Holy Grail” of deaf plays and how there needs to be more. Where do you see the industry now? Do you see in the works a greater variety of roles for deaf actors? And if not, what do you think needs to happen to make that happen for both of you?

MM: I‘ve bought IPs [intellectual properties[. I am developing stories that have to do with a deaf family or having to do with domestic violence. That’s one example of what I’ve attempted to do. I’m always looking for work on a daily basis. I’m always trying to be creative when it comes to doing or having to work on a television series. I’ve worked from the inside out. I’m a governor at the Academy, and I love the opportunity of being able to go to meetings to learn more about how the industry works from the inside out and to make changes. But we, or I, still hustle every day. It’s not easy. But having been in the industry for 40 years. I know how it works. I know how things play out. But at the same time, I can’t sit and wait. I can’t wait for scripts to come my way. So I’m always the one having to initiate meetings. I’m talking to Shoshannah about things that I would love to do with her again. But I can’t own her 100% because she’s a very busy lady; very, very busy. I have to share her.

SS: Related to the theme of being alone, I feel like Children of a Lesser God has been alone, the only story for such a long time. It is great for what it was at the time, 40 years ago. There have been other stories that have popped up with deaf people in them, but not yet to that level of familiarity yet.

MM: Because I think it feels safe. The fact that people see that film as safe, it’s something that’s well known. It’s part of the culture.

SS: Right? And I think there is a danger with focusing on “the first.” We do have this fascination with people being the first and then applauding them, but then … what next? What happens after they are the first? And to be alone can be dangerous. And so Marlee has been alone for such a long time in this industry. Children of a Lesser God has been the only story for a long time. And we just need more stories. And we need people to understand that we need more stories. I think people always say like, “Oh no, you have one. Don’t you have this one story? You have this one medical show that I saw a deaf person on … that medical show. You have representation.” And yes, but we just need more stories from all different perspectives. And I can’t tell you why those stories aren’t being made.

I have been trying to make stories for many years now, and I’m still trying to make stories and I’ll go until the very end. But I think that people are scared. There’s a lot of fear. And people will say, “We love it. It’s great, but not right now,” or “It’s just not where we’re going” is what I hear a lot. Or “It’s a risk if we take your story.” And I think that’s why I’ve wanted to tell this documentary in the way that I did, because I’ve really wanted to change the typical form that has been expected for so many years, for so long, and it won’t be the same form, but that’s why it’s so exciting.

Whenever I brought a deaf story, people were like, “OK, wait, what are we going to do about sound design? Who’s going to be the voiceover?” People didn’t want to think in a different way. And it’s like, “No, no, this is going to be a different film, but it’s going to be cool. It’s not scary. It’s cool.” And so one thing that I’m trying to show with this documentary is that we need to change the way that we usually see documentaries, and that there’s a huge potential for stories by and for deaf people, and that experience is still for everyone because we all live in the same world.

CLR: Thank you so much for talking to me and for sharing your stories.

SS/MM: Thank you!

Christopher Llewellyn Reed

Christopher Llewellyn Reed is a film critic, filmmaker, and educator, as well as Film Festival Today's Editor. A member of both the Online Film Critics Society (OFCS) and the Washington DC Area Film Critics Association (WAFCA), and a Rotten Tomatoes-approved film critic, Chris is, in addition, lead film critic at Hammer to Nail and the author of Film Editing: Theory and Practice.